But, only in Gal 1:19 is he a “brother of the Lord”. The event took place on Friday October 21st 2016, 1:00 PM – 9:00 PM CDT. Vs 3: “For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received:…”. Because our understanding of reality is always imperfect, always changing, always subject to questions, you can always poke holes in somebody else’s argument. So, what follows is Christ talking…about Christ. But he did basically argue in this debate that we can prove some content of the Gospels goes back to Aramaic sources which are therefore contemporary eyewitness sources. Given how unusual Jesus’ life had been, it’s possible what happened to his body after his crucifixion was also unconventional (though not supernatural), and that this helped create the legends that came to surround his passing. Engaging Discussions about Early Christianity. I don’t think we know what would have happened at Jesus’ trial before Pilate. No one can doubt that. At the time it seemed improbable. And yes, again, like just about every other scholar I know, I think some (lots) of figures in the Gospels are not historical AND that (of course!) They choose very clever counterpoints that superficially appear *correct* and do so under the guise of scholarship. a number of traditions can be traced to Aramaic sources. It’s a complicated word. I guess I must have missed it. Thanks Dr. Ehrman. There’s still a lot of other questions to answer about him, but Carrier, having decided there was no Jesus, never addresses any of these. I finally watched the debate this morning. Jung’s ideas are taken more seriously in psychology than in some other areas of study, mainly because they can’t really be proven. But Bart, if Mythicism is not credible and it is so obviously wrong, why is it that even great scholars of Christianity can’t demonstrate its falsehood? If Paul meant it somehow figuratively, that doesn’t affect the historical argument. Please adjust gear icon for 720p High-Definition: I’m glad to hear that the debate ended up being a nice experience. If he meant biological brother, the entire mythicist argument can be buried right there (or in the firmament if that’s more convenient). No, haven’t read it. But that NEVER means that the verse itself is an interpolation. A few months earlier, I had been talking to Phil Roberts, then the president of Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. It is likely that there in 1 Co 9.5 there are no other believers, but perhaps even “brothers”, of blood, as mentioned in the gospels that Jesus had. “Jesus. Roberts knew about my apologetics work and had asked me if I might be interested in doing a public debate. – Preview video of debate by Mythicist Milwaukee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPJh94tA14I What makes you think some of them don’t believe what they’re saying? Next, Paul goes into the chronology of Christ visions translated as “appearances”. “His argument is not with theism–nobody can ‘win’ the argument over whether or not there’s a God.”. Crazy. So he can’t claim that can’t happen or even that it’s unlikely. This is the debate. before the foundation of the world. A living man who had been crucified, something nobody ever even attempted to deny until the 18th century. Doesn’t it depend on how many people believe the idea? Who Would *Invent* the Idea that Women (?!) Paul’s religion included a promise that all of his followers, upon the imminent arrival of Jesus and their resurrection, would be adopted as sons of God. My favorite book by him was The Incredible Shrinking Son of Man. I think that in your reply, you’re getting parts of sentences mixed up. No, I”ve never applied a Jungian analysis to the early Christian traditions. In HJBG, you concede that “what normally happened to a criminal’s body is that it was left to decompose and serve as food for scavenging animals” (157). Scholarship that only admits to one possible answer isn’t scholarship. Maybe Pilate actually did have a guilty conscience after speaking to Jesus, and sending a man he knew to be harmless to the cross. No such luck. I just ordered my 8th book authored by Bart and consider myself one of his students….His New Testament textbook is one of my favorites. I read in this the implication that Paul studied in the language of the tradition – Aramaic, and perhaps Hebrew (or perhaps not). He framed this point such that he clearly intended the audience to believe those two facts entail that these features derive from (a) multiple (b) eyewitness sources.”. Dr. Ehrman, in The Deliverance of God: An Apocalyptic Rereading of Justification in Paul, D. Campbell is showing after a very complex process that Rom 13 is actually not a paulin thought at all like Rom 1:18 to 4:1. But isn’t Romans 13:1-7 widely thought to be a later interpolation? So even if somebody could come up with a reasonable argument that a gospel story was influenced by some earlier religious myth, that wouldn’t prove there isn’t also a basis in real-life events. I really don’t think he said that. Maybe Calvin Roetzel, The Letters of Paul? -James was no biological brother of Jesus. Glad to join here. You can go to conservative websites and see people saying this or that denier of evolution or global warming totally confuted and defeated the mainstream scholars he debated with at this or that event. No, I think that is a misunderstanding of the verse. They don’t want to think of Jesus as a man either. If you have listened to a podcast by him, or seen another debate, or read one of his book you would see this. For years I’ve been asked by people to debate a mythicist; I’ve always resisted, in part because I’ve thought that by doing so I would lend credibility to their view, which, in my judgment, is not credible. 1 Cor 15 is a gold mine for the mythicist interpretation. Thanks for posting Dr. Bart. What really bothers me are those who know Jesus was a real person but promote the mythicist view anyway. There is a lot of junk in both what some mythicists say and what some believing Christians say about history of Christianity. You’re right, its in every Ms, but he claims the “again” is missing in a few Mss in Gal 2:1, and that Iraneus quotes it w/o ‘again’, I actually looked in AH, and each site I can find has the again. The argument is whether or not Jesus existed, and the overwhelming consensus in Carrier’s field of study is that Jesus did exist. Looks like it will cover some of the same ground as your new book. All Rights Reserved. 1. Readers’ Mailbag, John, the Bedbugs, and Miracles that Convert. Which would not be necessary either, if Jesus was simply a myth borrowed from Zoroatrianism or some other pagan faith. There is no doubt that you came out the winner in last October’s debate. Were things still cordial between you after the debate? At least I don’t think any of the Pauline scholars I know (I know a lot) think it is. Joseph of Arimathea). He holds PhD's in systematic theology and the New Testament. Murdock. Mythicist Milwaukee focuses on educating the freethought/skeptic/atheist community about what the organization considers to be the mythological origins of religion. “James was no biological brother of Jesus” sounds very dogmatic, almost close-minded. Bart, do you ever bring up Jungian Archetypes and the ‘monomyth’ in these discussions? He emphasizes a miraculous event, narrated in the Gospels, which is the transfiguration. To share this article with your friends, use any of the social share buttons on our site, or simply copy the link below. Wouldn’t everyone be? It has no bearing on whether verses were in their manuscripts. It’s not likely, but my take on the gospel stories is that most of them are embellishments of what really happened, not outright fabrications. However, it is important that, while coming to entirely different conclusions, we understand the basis for each others narratives. So did Zoroaster. The total collapse of a civilization makes it hard to know, in subsequent ages, how that civilization conducted itself. I appreciate your thoughts, but even the myth of Santa Claus has a historical kernel. Well, I have to admit, he can be a bit aggravating. It made me think that Price may have got some of his ideas from him. I was rather stunned to learn this. I read everything Ehrman had written on the topic and formulated answers to his various assertions. In Galatians, Paul identifies James as the Brother in the first chapter, it is not necessary to repeat his qualification in the same letter. Remember, he received his Gospel from no man, but only from Christ himself. Woman of Faith speaker celebrated life of singleness. 1. In contrast, I was still a year away from completing my PhD and knew far less about the New Testament and early Christianity. It was February 2008. The only Jesus Christ that Paul knows is the one he’d seen in visions and somehow read about in scripture – as did everyone else who Paul writes about. I have massive respect for Robert Price. From my understanding Dr. Price suggests that if Jesus was a real person who he was is so wrapped up in the myth and the legend surrounding him that who he was has been lost. No I don’t believe Romans 13 is widely considered an interpolation. 1 Cor 15:8 does not say that Paul saw Jesus “alive”, “again”, nor “afterward”. But Robert is a nice guy and I finally yielded and said OK. They don’t want an improved understanding. It won’t cost you much and you’ll get tons for your money. If Aramaic was the language of the disciples, then Paul must have spoken that language also, as well as Latin when he stayed in Rome, and so on. Price claims Gal 1:19 may be interpolated. “For years I’ve been asked by people to debate a mythicist; I’ve always resisted, in part because I’ve thought that by doing so I would lend credibility to their view, which, in my judgment, is not credible”. He’s just trying to destroy the very field of study he makes his living in. -2 Peter 1:16 states that there were some who claimed Jesus to be a myth. Some issues are central, while others are barely peripheral. The book is called the “Dawn of Christianity”. Paul didn’t say he met with brothers Peter and James, but distinguished James as the brother of jesus. I thoroughly enjoyed Dr. Price’s books “The Reason Driven Life” and “Killing History” but after watching this debate I have to ask if you ever felt embarrassed for him? He decides what he wants to believe, then he ignores everything that undermines that belief. I’m just now seeing the reply to my comment. IT seems Richard Carrier wrote his review of your debate with Dr. Price. To unlock this article for your friends, use any of the social share buttons on our site, or simply copy the link below. How many years do you want to spend defending a silly pointless idea that most fundamentalist Christians never give a solitary waking thought? An example, in your case, would be your change of mind about the burial of Jesus, something Price mentioned during the debate. I had committed to a public debate with the prominent agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman. There is minimal evidence of Jesus outside the Gospels. Yeah, Price speaks more slowly in a rather monotone voice, so it’s more about listening carefully to his point. So why would I clearly intend my audience to think that, when it’s the opposite of what I’ve always said?? I think they are somewhat less credible, yes, since fundamentalists usually disagree principally on the meanings of texts, rather than on fundamental historical questions such as whether there was a man Jesus. Stylistic flourishes could, I suppose, have some from some other tradition. No he doesn’t mumble he just (as Dr. Ehrman said) never repeats himself. Most modern scholars deem Acts to be non-historical. You are correct, of course, to say, “We do not know, and cannot know.” Nonetheless, it seems fair to say, based on the ancient sources you reference, that it’s not only plausible that Jesus’ body was left on the cross but also that it’s probable that’s what happened. Great simple answer – Price would have made a pretty good lawyer, though he’s not what you’d call a spellbinding orator. He did not give any examples, but he said generically that some passages “make more sense” if they were translated from Aramaic into Greek and the Gospels include some Aramaic words.

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